Religious fanatism

thank god you re in minority..

Jennifer Lopez

I'm not in the minority where I live.

LOL no. I live in a very civilized society.

No personal attacks please..

Anyway back to the discussion. I can definitely understand both sides, but imo it really all depends on when you think life starts or when it gets a "spirit". Imo when it can't survive on it's own yet, it doesn't have a "spirit" or when the heart starts beating, I haven't made my mind up about that yet. Couldn't it be (for the people that believe in spirits), that the spirit will find another body and will still have a chance to live?

A question for the people that voted "Yes and No. If the person was raped then why not, but def. not if they made an oopsie!" Isn't it in your logic still a live you take away, even when a woman got pregnant by being raped? That choice doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh and one more question for the religious people. Do you believe it should be illegal to have an abortion or would you just not choose to have one yourself? I have by no means studied the bible, but doesn't it say something about people having free choice? Shouldn't your god be the one to judge the person that decides to have an abortion?

hahahaa, I missed it yesterday. I saw 3 pages and truly expected the worst. But it's mostly civil. Nice job, BBers!


As far as my opinion, it's a tough one. I think in some cases it should be allowed, but using it as a form of birth control makes me very uncomfortable. Maybe one time, but I really don't agree when people do it multiple times.

I find the argument that the baby/fetus wouldn't survive outside a womb interesting, but quickly losing validity. Younger and younger preemies are surviving with technological improvements. Human beings are also increasingly dependent on machines like pacemakers. So that won't be an argument for long...

abortion is murder, no matter what you say, or call it.
you killed human being with intension, can anyone prove this worng, and no murder is aproved but only if life is risked.

Can anyone prove when the fetus becomes a human being? If we go by the logic it could have become a beautiful person, masturbation should be illegal, cause the spermy had the potential to become a human being.

I do however agree with H, that the decision should be well informed and not an overnight decision. btw I'm pro choice, I would probably never decide to have an abortion myself..if I was a woman. lol

it becomes human being when spermy and egg become an embrio which means immediatelly after coitus if happens conception...from religius aspect masturbation is not aproved either, so we can debate about that either, but not every ones here share the same opinion , so it s unneceserry to go into a deeper conversations.

I voted yes - but it always depends on the circumstances.
I just hope that I'll never come into a situation that I have to decide this question!!!

There will always be two sides until something is proven.....

@J God exists and i m a orthodox priest's daughter so dont start an argument with me..plus greeks passed the christianity torch to the world ages ago so as the ambassadors of christianity in europe we re pretty religious.always have been..there is NO WAY you can tell me about God not existing...but i m not a fanatic without putting my brain to think about what my religion is about......i ve studied a lot about religion and the perceptions about it..so i know the true form of religion and not the "religion for the masses to fight about" religion

@JD i m glad we re on the same page...

@stefan i cant put my finger on that "travelling soul" part..i cant say i believe that 1 soul can travel from a body to another but i cant be sure either..who knows!!

@jenrox indeed babies are now delivered so early if there is a problem and they re considered people...fighting to live ..not pieces of flesh who re nothing but skin put together... plus when a baby is 5 or 6 months and gets delivered and it has no chances to live the parents baptise it to make sure it is cleansed because to the eyes of God it is a new soul like every other soul...just not a lucky one to make it to this world

LOL I agree ! Literally all these lives down the drain....

He said spermies!

OMG you guys are so messy!

Think of how many more people we would have......

The whole issue is gray for me, but in this case, I think that the woman wasn't being irresponsible. She's the victim of a violent crime, and therefore, I can understand why this route might make sense. Otherwise, I just assume people weren't taking care of their business while having sex. That distinction makes it "acceptable" to me.

This whole question sounds a bit ignorant to me..no offence! A rape is when a woman is VIOLENTLY FORCED into a sexual intercourse...

I assume you're a guy and I'm just wondering, do men actually realise how it feels to have a dick shoved up your vagina when the woman is not enjoying it one little bit ?

Nobody would want their child (which they will love unconditionally) to remind them of probably the worst moment of their lives. Looking at your child and remembering that moment must be a hard thing to live with.

Sorry to be so graphic and...vulgar.

naturally us women are more sensitive cuz this is our subject..rape is indeed the biggest and deepest phychological scar a woman can have..i cant even imagine how it feels lke...it is the biggest crime imo...to violate someone defenceless this way..in this case it is absolutely normal for a woman to wanna erase anything that may remind her of that experience and a baby will be the best thing that will ever happen to her combined with the worst thing that has ever happened to her...it is soooo difficult to bare...needs a lot of character to make this work...

I understand why men is perceived as the one that gives us, women the babies...but their 'spermies' are worth horse shit without what we've got...and vice versa.

So NO, masturbation and the internal fertilisation between men and women isn't exactly the same. One without the other does not make babies. Sperm is not a potential baby on its own. Comparing foetus to semen sounds very crap to me..


And J, saying something like 'God doesn't exist' makes you look like you're just fishing for attention. It really doesn't help your argument...

Abortion is a tricky topic, like Heather said though, it is pretty much a big grey area. Different scenarios, different solutions.

I don't know what country you live in but, I don't think I'm the only one with my opinion, hence why most First World nations actually choose career over having kids...developed nations usually have older population...and in Australia, where I'm from, this is one of the reasons why we have migration...people don't have kids if they don't feel financially secure.

I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not ignorant, I'm actually for abortion in that case. I can definitely understand why a raped woman wouldn't want that child. It's just a bit ignorant to me to think rape is the only reason a mother will never be able to give the child unconditional love. For example if the mother's a meth addict, do you really think the kid will have a live?

The reason why I asked that question is cause I'm curious how people that are against it cause of religious reasons deal with rules like that? Can they just decide rape is an exception to their rules? Definitely not trying to diss religious people, just curious.

^Well yeah a meth addict mother would not be the ideal parent but an addict may have been sober and in a relationship when they had their kids...so if we don't go by a specific scenario, addicts don't hate their kids and aren't reminded of a bad memory when they look at their kids.


I consider myself to be a religious person and I can only speak for myself but being against aborting a baby as a result of a rape is like being against medicine and treatment, embracing your illness because god made you ill...

Women who are raped and hospitalised are immediately given shots to terminate any possible pregnancies anyway..and no the doctors don't ask the raped woman if they would like to have the shot or not...

If it depends on someone's life, which means when the fetus puts her mother's life at risk, then it's acceptable to have an abortion.

If a woman is raped and gets pregnant, I can't say she's able to get an aboration, 'cause it depends on her situation and the way she sees things.

I just don't agree with those who get an aboration, just because of their financial problems, if you do not want the responsibility of having a baby you should have protected sex . Or just when the fetus is having a bad problem i.e those who are deformed, disabled or handicapped, they also have the right to live like anyone else.

Ahhh...finally I can log in and contribute to this conversation

From the perspective of a non-religious, pro-choice female:

Issue #1: Is the fetus a person?
-Yes. I believe it is, in the sense that a zygote can only become a person and not a cancer cell, skin cell, etc. Its genetic coding and DNA all say "person." Thus, it's a person in my eyes.
-With that being said, "age of viability" is around 22-24 weeks now, I think. Yes, babies can survive very early outside the womb - but they generally don't flourish or develop normally. Michelle Duggar has NO FREAKING IDEA how lucky she is that baby Josie is doing as well as she is!
-the term "person" ascribed to a fetus only has as much meaning as the mother/couple imparts on it. That means, if the pregnancy is a welcome event, then it's a baby and a person. If it's not a welcome event, the fact that it's a "person" means much less.

Issue #2: does a fetus being considered a person make it NOT OKAY to abort?
-No. I follow the belief that YOUR RIGHTS END WHERE MINE BEGIN. That means, your right to free speech, for example, ends when my right to not be discriminated against begins. In this case, the fetus' right to exist one day ends where my right to physical, psychological, and emotional health begins.
-In a nutshell: the rights of the mother supersede the rights of a fetus when it comes to continuing the pregnancy or not.

Issue #3: when is abortion acceptable?
-in my opinion, anytime a baby isn't wanted, abortion is acceptable. The following are my reasons for this:

1. The obvious ones: rape, incest, severe developmental problems which will not allow the baby to survive outside the womb, etc.
2. Severe physical or emotional risk to the mother (YES, mental health matters!) i.e. increased heart attack risks due to stress of a developing a baby
3. Birth control is not infallible - mistakes are made, shots are missed, pills are rendered unreliable due to taking antibiotics, timing is off, or you're part of the 1-4% birth control fails for.
4. Babies are not always welcome - some people do not want to be parents, are unable to be parents, for a variety of reasons. They are not always gifts and blessings, and can easily be the "worst thing to ever happen" to a woman.
5. Unwanted children become social problems and a drain on the system. Lambast me all you want for this - BUT IT'S TRUE. Who ends up in foster care? Unwanted kids. Who is less likely to finish high school, end up juvenile detention facilities, and suffer from poor health in the long-term? Unwanted kids.
6. For all of you suggesting "just have your unwanted child adopted" - I hope you're all planning to adopt some of those unwanted kids. If not, this argument is invalid.
7. Religious doctrine is not important in many peoples' lives and doesn't deserve to be considered in seeking an abortion unless it's important to you. We don't all have to be Christian!!!

Issue #4, which is the biggest issue of all: what right does the state have to tell me what I can and cannot do with my uterus??
-First of all, it's mostly white men who control laws and policies in most developed countries. My fellow ladies on this board, especially the Americans, should be EFFING OUTRAGED over what is going down in Virginia. Forced transvaginal ultrasounds for women seeking abortions? Forced counselling? GTFO. You have got to be kidding me. Needless to say, no women were involved in this hearing that made that decision.
-I think at the core of the abortion debate is archaic notions of patriarchy, where women's bodies need to be tamed and controlled. To me, outlawing abortion is essentially the same as saying "women cannot be trusted to make smart decisions, so we'll just make it for them and they'll thank us later."
-I can't imagine anything much worse than being forced to continue a pregnancy that you DO NOT WANT.
-Also, it's none of your damn business what health-care and parenting decisions others make (yep, abortion is a parenting decision, like it or not).


In conclusion, I think it's very easy for anyone to sit on their high moral and religious horse and say, "well, just don't have sex if you can't have a baby!" but hell to the no. Access to sex education, birth control, and sexual health care are very highly correlated with your place in the social world; that is, your level of education, race/ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and your age & gender. Don't tell me that we're all on a level playing field.

As well, I think people often believe that abortion is an easy decision. All of the evidence suggests that this is FALSE FALSE FALSE. Nobody *likes* abortion - what they like is the choice and respect for personal freedoms. I don't agree in using abortion is a method of birth control, but I also don't agree in pretending that all women ascribe to Christian values and have access to the same resources. For what it's worth, teenage girls also account for the smallest group of women seeking abortions.